Friday, June 09, 2006

Clustering, Get it?

Anonymous said... C'mon U.B. let's keep the debate honest. The WP3 property was down zoned to 1 acre so that coupled with the clustering it would yield 1/4 acre zoning.
Just to clear up any misconceptions
.

Okiedoke. Let's clear up the misconceptions. That way we can make room for you to bring in new ones.

First, with the exception of the senior housing in WP3, there will not be any 1/4 acre lots. None!

WP3's homes will be on lots larger than Don's 1/2 acre homestead, many at about 1 acre. Legacy Ridge, which has no special senior housing will be on larger lots than WP3.

But the central point that you miss is that clustering is the goal. Putting houses on 1 acre lots instead of 2 acre lots, allows the creation of large areas of undeveloped land around the homes. That's a good thing.

So, here is a somewhat lengthy (sorry) excerpt from The Planning Commissioners Journal. Have someone read it to you and maybe you'll finally get it.

Conventional zoning is essentially a blueprint for development, and development alone. Of course, zoning normally separates incompatible uses, and it does establish certain standards (such as maximum densities and minimum setbacks), but it typically does little to protect open space or to conserve rural character. The reason many subdivisions consist of nothing more than houselots and streets is because zoning and subdivision design standards usually require developers to provide nothing more. While many ordinances contain detailed standards for pavement thickness and culvert diameters, very few set any noteworthy standards for the quantity, quality and configuration of open space to be preserved.
Conventional zoning assigns a development designation to every acre of land, generally residential, commercial, or industrial. The only lands which are normally not designated for development are wetlands and floodplains. Conventional zoning has been accurately described as "planned sprawl," because every square foot of each development parcel is converted to front yards, back yards, streets, sidewalks, or driveways. Period. Nothing is left over to become open space, in this land-consumptive process.


[Editor's Note: The Center for Rural Massachusett's Web site contains excellent drawings comparing development under conventional zoning principles and development using open space/cluster principles].


A Better Solution
Local officials who are interested in ensuring that their communities will not ultimately become a seamless web of subdivisions, shopping centers and office or industrial parks now have a practical and effective alternative: compulsory open space zoning. This technique has been successfully implemented by a number of municipalities in New England and the Mid-Atlantic states, and by several counties in Virginia, Washington State and California.

In order to avoid disturbing the equity held by existing landowners, open space zoning allows the same overall amount of development that is already permitted. The key difference is that this technique requires new construction to be located on only a portion -- typically half -- of the parcel. The remaining open space is permanently protected under a conservation easement co-signed by a local conservation commission or land trust, and recorded in the registry of deeds.

As "open space zoning" is based upon the technique of "clustering," these two terms are used interchangeably throughout the rest of this article. It should also be noted that the cluster concept can be restricted to detached, single-family homes, each on its own down-sized houselot, in communities or in specific zoning districts where this is politically desirable. In other words, cluster housing is by no means limited to townhouses, apartments, or condominiums, as is typical in many PUDs (planned unit developments) and PRDs (planned residential developments). In fact, the classic rural village settlement pattern is a superb example of single-family clustering, sometimes with a central green constituting the permanently preserved open space.

Cluster Design
The basic principle of cluster development is to group new homes onto part of the development parcel, so that the remainder can be preserved as unbuilt open space. The degree to which this accomplishes a significant saving of land, while providing an attractive and comfortable living environment, depends largely on the quality of the zoning regulations and the expertise of the development designer (preferably someone experienced in landscape architecture).

Although the concept of clustering is fairly simple, this "new" form of development has raised concerns among some residents of rural or suburbanizing areas because it is quite different from the conventional, standardized subdivision pattern with which most of us are very familiar. Interestingly, the conventional suburban model, commonplace in many growing communities, is actually a pattern that is at odds with the otherwise traditional rural landscape. It looks "at home" only in our sprawling metropolitan post-war suburbs, where it has become the predominant building pattern.


for the rest go to: http://www.plannersweb.com/articles/are015.html

26 comments:

Anonymous said...

I see that you've passed 25,000 hits unc, congrats.

Anonymous said...

Too bad those morons behind the lawsuits just don't "get it". Perhaps if or when Brodsky gives up, and KJ becomes the new owner, they'll finally understand what HIGH DENSITY really means. We can only hope and pray that Brodsky will stay strong, and that the lawsuit will be dismissed on the grounds that the morons who brought it are just that, MORONS, and don't truly understand the zoning or rezoning process. We'll have to keep our fingers crossed!

Anonymous said...

We'll this whole lawsuit has nothing to do with high density or not following certain planning procedures or whatever. I have said it before, it all has to do with power. Uncle Bill, along with cousins caruso, siebold and donnelly want to rule Woodbury forever. Thats why they need their KJ freinds to move to Woodbury. If WP3 or Legacy Ridge go through thats allot of potential land that KJ could buy up thats off the market. That means citizens who dont get told how to vote will be living there...people like us who cant be bought and sold. This lawsuit is about Woodbury's futre...a future where we run our town...not like Monroe where KJ runs it.

Anonymous said...

"not like monroe where kj runs it"?

what's wrong with one person, one vote?

it worked for centuries

why do you single out residents of kj?

don't they have the same rights as you?

Anonymous said...

lets take another view of the propossed zoning changes..... Billy boy gets his approvals and the housing market gets "soft"..... His investors tell him " SELL SELL SELL!!! We want out " .. give us our money now and SELL the land to another developer who has the money, time, and interest to develope the land ...say in 10 -15- 20 yrs. I wonder who that future developer would be ??

Uncle Betty said...

And no doubt, it would get worse. Having sold, at a loss, to some unamable group, Bill finds himself an outcast. Broke and shunned he turns to drugs. In order to support his habit he starts knocking over the A-Mart and Jay's again and again.
Finally the police catch on and increase security there and so Bill turns to house breaking.
One night he breaks into your home, you surprise him and in his panic he slaughters you and your entire family.
And this entire tragedy could have been avoided if we had only listened to Ralph Caruso. Oh Ralph, what have we done?

Anonymous said...

not like monroe where kj runs it"? what's wrong with one person, one vote?

When elected officals lose in every district in town but win in KJ with over 99 percent of the vote thats not democracy or one person one vote. Its also not democracy when religious officals coerce and tell the electorate who they ARE voting for.

it worked for centuries

Yes it used to in Monroe for many years. Republicans and Democrats got elected by a cross section of the electorate all by free thinking voters who voted for whom THEY wanted to vote for. Elected officials in Monroe served the ENTIRE community, not just one section.

why do you single out residents of kj?don't they have the same rights as you?

The people of KJ are being singled out becuase their leaders are the root of the problem. I know most people in KJ are good decent individuals who raise families but allow themselves to be used by the powerful among them for the powerful among them's own political gain. Most KJ people are good neighbors. Their corrput leadership bent on domination and political power are not.

It's not the people of KJ that people in Woodbury fear. Its the arrogance, greed, and selfishness of the leadership who put their people up for sale to politicians and votes all to people like Larkin and Caruso that scare me and many like minded people in Woodbury.

The average folk in KJ and the residents of Woodbury and Monroe have alot in common. We are all like chess pieces in a big political game.

Anonymous said...

That's the reason that it is so important that fair elections take place in KJ.
It's why the KJ Alliance has been trying for two years to get the voter sign in books that prove that there is massive vote fraud going on.
And it's why people like former Judge Rosenwasser and Eddie Diana and Bill Larkin and Bill DiProspo won't lift a finger to prevent the corrupt practices in the elections there.

Anonymous said...

Uncle, Uncle, Uncle – I said let’s keep the debate honest. In your eagerness to expound you continue to misinform.

Okiedoke (sic). Let's clear up the misconceptions. That way we can make room for you to bring in new ones. (I liked that line so I thought I’d keep it)

Great information you provided on Clustering, which after all is the goal, so let’s actually read what you put forth.

The basic principle of cluster development is to group new homes onto part of the development parcel, so that the remainder can be preserved as unbuilt open space.

In order to avoid disturbing the equity held by existing landowners, open space zoning allows the same overall amount of development that is already permitted.

Yes, to preserve open space but “allow the same overall amount of development”; not to dramatically increase the number of homes to be built. The WP3 property at 400 acres zoned for 2 acres would allow for a maximum of 200 homes. If they were clustering those 200 homes on 100 acres and leaving the rest as open space we would probably not be having this discussion. The WP-3 site plan calls for 324 homes, not including the 129 Senior Housing units. An increase of 124 homes (62%) not including the 129 Senior Housing units. That’s because in addition to clustering we also down zoned the property (see Town of Woodbury Local Law #6 2005) from 2 acres to 1 acre. Not exactly the same overall amount of development is it?

So my dear UB, the central point that you miss is that if clustering is the goal why then the additional local laws to down zone? The answer is clear; to increase Mr. Brodsky and his partners profits.

And while you are correct that with the exception of the senior housing in WP3, there will not be any 1/4 acre lots, you are grossly incorrect when you misstate that “WP3's homes will be on lots larger than Don's 1/2 acre homestead, many at about 1 acre”. A quick look at the WP-3 site plan (again, not including the Senior Housing units) shows 212 lots (65%) with a typical lot size of 15,000 – 20,000 SF, just over 1/3 (.34) acre to less than ½ (.46) acre. The other 112 lots (35%) have a typical lot size of 30,000 SF which is under ¾ (.69) acre. Now of course these are “typical” lot sizes so there may be a few that are a bit larger and “about 1 acre”. I guess it depends on how you define “about” and how many is “many”.

I realize this is somewhat lengthy (sorry), but UB the truth must be told. (Just to clear up any misconceptions)

Anonymous said...

So you expect us to believe that the only reason the town board rezoned the WP-3 property was to increase Mr Brodsky and Co. profits!
I guess it couldn't possibly be for a fourty acre park with a lake on it, or for the buffer around the development. Not to mention upgrades to the town's water system.
Why should the town board be concerned with the profits of the developer? The town board was elected to PROTECT US!!!. So in the course of protecting open space for the TOWN, the developer makes a huge profit.
I think that you are a little jealous. Perhaps unsuccesful in life. I bet you wish you had such a financial windfall but didn't have the smarts to actually make it happen.
Do not bore us with the same old blah,blah blah whining crap about who's making a big profit. I think most of us don't care. Use a better arguement then that.

Anonymous said...

We all know where this conversation is leading...how the previous town board was corrupt, and how Shiela must have filled her pockets, but how John is going to lead us all into better times...blah, blah, blah. Can we get off this merry-go-round, please?!?!?! The fact of the matter is we must wait for the court's decision and go from there. Unfortunately, it won't stop there, because Ralph and his groupies will never stop trying to dismantle Woodbury. Hey Ralph, is your latest graduate in the class of degenerates, Bob Donnelly, the one behind the newest petition to get rid of the assessor? You guys have quite a work ethic...if you don't like what's going on have a petition drive and/or sue...you take "the American way" to new heights! Can we start a petion to remove you and your followers from town?

Anonymous said...

New to Uncle---Great spot---I like to keep things simple
So here goes--anyone who is concerned about “clustering “
Owes it to themselves to read a paper put out by the
Metropolitan Institute at Virginia Tech in 1998
http://www.mi.vt.edu/Research/Files/Case_for_HDH.pdf
Please read---get over it---and move along

Anonymous said...

Speaking of Donnelly, we all know that he is behind this rally in Timber Ridge about the assessments in that community going up. Instead of more Donnelly propaganda and misinformation, let’s look at some hard facts and actual numbers.

Taking a home sample from Timber Ridge, these are the real numbers (and can be obtained EASILY on line)

12 Terra Ct.
Estimated market value: $269,518
(Market range $242,566-363,849)

3 bedrooms, 1.5 baths; 1,426 sq ft inside; lot size: 960 sq ft or 0.02 acres (high density?) built in 1978

2005 property tax: $4,533
Total assessed value: $73,200
THAT IS 27.1% OF THE MARKET VALUE!
This home is seriously UNDERASSESSED
In 2004 the assessed value was less and the taxes remained THE SAME

Because of the possibility (not definitely) of the taxes on this home going up, Mr. Donnelly is, once again, starting a lawsuit against the Town of Woodbury, which, means the legal fees have to be paid by the town (which means YOU the people who live in the town). THAT will make your taxes go up!

At the market value of $269,518, this home is valued higher than 41% of the homes in Orange County

The resident family of 12 Terra Ct certainly does not have too much to cry about.
Why are you crying Mr. Donnelly?

Anonymous said...

where can i find this information online?

Anonymous said...

Hey Uncle, not to change the subject or anything, but what do you think about the olive branch extended by the KJ Alliance to Blooming Grove? It appears that the Alliance are a group of people who sincerely want to be trusted and stand by their word...no smoke and mirrors. As an organization, do you have any information on them, good &/or bad?

Anonymous said...

Hey Swiller are you talking to yourself again ??? .

Anonymous said...

This proves a point i made in an earlier thread. There are some good decent people in KJ who want to be good neighbors. It's the corrupt power hungry leadership who are arrogant who are not.

Anonymous said...

I am another "I am not Swiller" poster...i know it is hard for Ralph, Don, and their KJ leadership freinds to realize that there is an ENTIRE community against them. So, to make themselves feel better they think this whole blog, Unlce Betty, and those of us who post on here are just one person...becuase...according to their stupid rationale only one person hates them...Swiller..we'll good let them continue to think that...we'll just have to keep showing people like Ralph (uhh...how many times have you been defeated for office now??) that we are larger than he and his group can ever imagine.

Anonymous said...

Is the KJ Alliance the group that WITHDREWW the annexation papers?

Uncle Betty said...

A gesture of good neighborship'

By Bob Quinn



WOODBURY-The Kiryas Joel Alliance announced this week it has withdrawn its petition to annex 87 acres from the Town of Woodbury into the Village of Kiryas Joel "as a gesture of good faith in its desire for improved relations and neighborliness with the surrounding communities."

Pinkus Jakobowitz, speaking on behalf of the alliance at a press conference with town of Woodbury officials and members of SOCA at Work, acknowledged that the sole motive behind the annexation bid was "to help alleviate the great hardship experienced by large middle income families in their quest for affordable housing.

"However, after listening to the concerns of our neighbors during various discussions with leaders of the Town of Woodbury and SOCA-at-Work for the past two months, and after evaluating the current situation as a whole, we have concluded that for the sake of promoting good neighborly relations we are withdrawing this petition for annexation," he added.

The timing of the Tuesday's announcement, noted Woodbury Supervisor Sheila Conroy, was important because on Wednesday, the state Department of Environmental Conservation was to rule on which municipality - the town of Woodbury or the village of Kiryas Joel - would be the lead agency to oversee environmental reviews.

Conroy, like Jakobowitz and Jonathan Swiller from SOCA at Work, acknowledged the spirit of cooperation among the parties. And although the details remain to be worked out, she and Town Councilwoman Lorraine McNeill also discussed the creation of a community panel to continue discussions between the groups.

That collegiality has not always been evident in such discussion.


SOCA is non-profit organization comprised of members who are concerned about the potential growth in southern Orange County and committed to fighting the proposed "KJ Pipeline" as well as any future proposals to annex Monroe and Woodbury property into the Village of Kiryas Joel, according to its Web site.

"We can prevent annexation. We can prevent the creation of new villages. But we can only do so if the panic selling stops," the group says on the Web.

But on Tuesday afternoon, at the backyard press conference in Woodbury, Swiller also struck a conciliatory tone with the Alliance.

"When the KJA saw that our objection to annexation was based on real concerns, and not blind resistance, they reconsidered the idea of annexation and told us that it was outweighed by their wish to have constructive relationships with their neighbors," he said. "They then offered to drop their annexation plan. This was done unilaterally and was not part of any quid pro quo.

"And we are profoundly grateful to the Kiryas Joel Alliance who put neighborliness first, and proved that their words were matched by their actions. We view this event as merely the start of an interaction based on mutual respect, openness and fairness on all sides."

Then he and Jakobowitz shook hands.

The issue of growth in Kiryas Joel remains, however. According to a report in the Times Herald-Record, the alliance has not withdrawn the second annexation petition it filed in August n to annex 97 acres of Monroe into Kiryas Joel.

Anonymous said...

As I remember it weren't all the annexed requests originally one application and after the applicants filed them they realized they didn't own the Woodbury town board (Yet) and if they proceeded they would be in court for many years and took out the land that was in woodbury .They proceeded with the property in Monroe ( As they own the Town board) and received approvals with their requests. All the other stuff that I just read is a public relations spin put on by no other that Mr. Swiller and his cohorts .

Anonymous said...

Actually, this is the message put on by me. My cohorts are on strike.

Which "they" are you talking about?
Jews? Satmar? Republicans?

In any case, in that you haven't the faintest clue, it doesn't really matter what you think, now does it?

For the benefit of others, the KJA didn't receive approval for their annexation petition in Monroe. It is in legal limbo, not going anywhere at the moment.

But the idea that the powers that be in KJ would be happy to see a successful annexation into the village of land owned by members of the KJA is laughable.

Why on earth would they want to give up their monopoly?

Learn a little about the politics of the regeon before you post, OK?

Why not give Bill Larkin a call, he has a lot of first hand knowledge of the inner workings of the village.

Anonymous said...

Re: Proposed Neighborly Gesture of Towers in the Park...
Towers are being discussed again at the County bldg, physical services committee meeting, top floor Wed June 21 at 3 pm

There is something fishy going on here, the Village of KJ is acting like the towers in the park is a "done deal".

Anonymous said...

This is Frank Fornario's tel. #'s He is the chairman of the physical services committee... Call him and tell him how you feel about this issue of using county park land that is physically in the town of woodbury for another community for their exclusive use.......... .res. 4698292 and cell # 3252127

Anonymous said...

OK, so Chairman Lahey thinks KJ should get the tanks??? Sounds like he's reinforcing the KJ notion that you build, build, build and THEN figure out how to sustain it later. What a formula! Isn't it putting the cart before the horse??? Or is that truly the method by which KJ has been most successful...go out and do exactly what you want, and worry about how to keep it gooing,AFTER the fact. It's sad that the women's facility won't have water, but why was it built without the water plans FIRST in place. And how can the new houses be PLANNED if the water wasn't ok'd FIRST????? Does KJ even have Building and Planning Departments??And if so, how are things built and plans ok'd without FIRST addressing a major issue like WATER??? Or, has it always just been ASSUMED by the KJ leaders that whatever they want, especially from the county, they will AUTOMATICALLY get?? More and more, it seems that way. I certainly hope the Legislature continues to stand up to this behavior...shame on you Mr. Lahey!!

Anonymous said...

Rumor has it that there is a decision in the WPC/ Brodsky article 78 case . is it true and if so what is the ruling ?