Woodbury's topsy-turvy politics
By John Sullivan
January 01, 2008 Times Herald-Record
WOODBURY — It's not always easy to know who your friends are if you're a politician in this town. Where else would you find a Democrat shouting at her own party committee boss for allegedly working with Republicans? Republican Committee members campaigning for Democrats? And Republicans and Democrats attacking their own party heads for suspected involvement in a misinformation campaign to oust two Town Council members?
Crossing party lines is not uncommon at the municipal level, but current and former elected officials claim that the two-party machine in Woodbury has been replaced by a practice of backroom deals.
The culprits, these critics say, belong to an old guard of power brokers in Republican and Democratic parties.
Sparking the outrage was the distribution of fliers meant to smear Republican council incumbents Michael Aronowitz and Lorraine McNeill. Supervisor John Burke, a Democrat, has taken responsibility for the fliers, which falsely blamed Aronowitz and McNeill for raising tax assessments in a populous town-house complex.
But some Republicans say they believe that members of their own party had a hand in the plot. Aronowitz said he believes that the chairman of the town Republican Committee worked directly or indirectly with Burke to oust him and McNeil. He is joined by Republican Town Board members Geraldine Gianzero, Mike Queenan and former Republican Supervisor Sheila Conroy in condemning what they believe has been a practice of quarterbacking elections by a small group of power brokers in both parties.
Manny Mangual, the town Democratic chairman, denied any knowledge of such cooperation among members of his committee. Ralph Caruso, head of the Woodbury Republicans, could not be reached.
But Gianzero, who is former vice chairwoman of the Woodbury Republicans, said the latest elections wouldn't have been the first time that members of the Republican and Democratic committees worked together. "We call them the Republicrats," said Gianzero. "They are a few Republicans and a few Democrats, who have joined forces to get only their own people, whether Republican or Democrat, elected."
Some in the town talk of mutiny by several Republicans, as well as a few Democrats, against their party leaderships over the issue of development.
On one side is a new generation of politicians led by Gianzero and Conroy, who claim that the older, entrenched group of town leaders want control of both town and village governments and will use any tactic to get their puppets into power. On the other side are leaders, including Burke, Caruso and former town Democratic Committee Chairman Bob Donnelly, who view a new group of leaders as too accommodating to developers. "
From now on, it's going to be who represents the developers and who represents the people who live here," Donnelly said.
And now for fun with videos. The Uncle's favorite is Mike Aronowitz's clip - keep your eyes on John Burke as he attempts to shrink away into invisibility.
Lorraine McNeill
Mike Aronowitz
Lorraine Redux
Jonathan Swiller
Sandy Capriglione
Kieran Conroy
46 comments:
"From now on, it's going to be who represents the developers and who represents the people who live here," Donnelly said.
What an idiot. He, along with Caruso, Burke and their whole entourage wants the residents to believe that anyone (including Town & Village officials) that doesn't go along with their twisted agenda must be representing developers. What a jerk. In his pea-sized brain, things probably are THAT simple, but as anyone with half a human brain knows, elected officials and planning and zoning board members must make decisions based on the law and the merits of each project. If it were up to Donnelly and the rest of them, they'd simply construct an iron gate around Woodbury and no one would be able to breath without asking them first.
Another laugher here I think. Just got my tax bill. It went down by about $300 but half of that was the Fire District which will be picked up now by the Village. Am I to understand that my bill went down by only about 3% for the Town? This is after building, planning, zoning, water and sewer and the FD have been moved to the Village. Now I see why Burke and the Board gave themselves raises. Less work and more money and they knew no one would be able to figure out the financials of this magilla what with the Village just getting up and running. These guys truly are brilliant!
Perhaps you should show up tomorrow night and ask Mr. Burke for an explanation. Although he may just decide to answer you like this, " I'll take full responsibility for it, and that's all I'm going to say on the subject".
And that dear friends is known as OPEN GOVERNMENT, Burke style.
There are valid arguments for and against any given development project.
But Donnelly and friends don't make valid arguments, instead they simply lie (1 - 2 acre zoning is high density, the planning board members take bribes, the five local laws apply to every undeveloped acre in Woodbury, the developers plan to flip to KJ, etc.).
As long as his side continues to lie they have no right to be taken seriously - unfotunately the Times Herald Record doesn't get that.
Where to start with Donnelly, Burke, Caruso, Manguel, Siebold and crew?
They play to people's fears so that people react rather than think about what they are being told.
They tell people what they want to hear, not the truth.
They repeat the lies so often that even they come to believe them.
They plant unproven rumors to discredit anyone who does not follow their lead even though it is now shown that they are the liars.
They don't understand what they are talking about but again, fear and discrediting your opponents keep people from thinking and asking follow up questions to which they will not have reasonable answers.
All except one of the above live on lots smaller than those proposed in the development across from the high school. Manguel and Donnelly live on lots that truly are high density ( 7-10 units per acre as compared to Brodsky's project 2 units per acre for most houses or 4 units per acre for senior housing) and yet they call this project high density. Don't you think at least they should know the difference? But remember it is about spinning information and not the truth.
And it is also not about truth but about power and control. Say whatever is needed to win and hope people don't notice that their votes were stolen from them.
What a crew!!!
As long as people hand them the power and not make them accountable they will continue on the same path and Woodbury will suffer from their excesses and their lies.
Wasn't it Hilter who said:
1)The broad masses of a population are more amenable to the appeal of rhetoric than to any other force.
2)The great masses of the people will more easily fall victims to a big lie than to a small one.
3)The victor will never be asked if he told the truth.
4) What good fortune for governments that the people do not think.
5)Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it.
And finally...
6)It is not truth that matters, but victory.
If I din't know any better, I'd think the Republicrats were following the word of Hitler!
Please don't bring Hitler into this!
Thank you, oh thank you woodbury, for my escrow shortage and increase in my monthly mortgage payment, thanks for the tax increase, I love paying more and getting less, I'll hire my own garbage company, can I have some of my tax money back? Now lets see if we can all get on track and disband this village as soon as possible, Swiller why don't YOU, start a petition to disband, Do something useful, you putz!
Now that's a smart statement- you get your tax bill from the Town and you want to disband the Village??? That makes sense.
The quotes from Hitler are not the point. What is the point is the commentary about politics, lies and human nature.
Donnelly, Caruso, Burke and crew scare people into signing petitions to create a village because people are told it will prevent annexation. A lie, but fear pushes people to believe it.
Same crew calls project across from high school high density zoning when it is not different from what most people, including themselves live in in Woodbury. Oh, let's be honest here. It is many times bigger than the lots on which Manny Manguel and Bob Donnelly live which is truly high density. Guess they got confused and didn't know the difference even though they see true high density out their windows everyday.
Same crew spread lies that Conroy, Gerri and other Board members are taking bribes from developers. Also they claim Woodbury is being run by developers. More lies. People have a legal right to develop there properties so why not get some benefits for the taxpayers. Does anyone really believe that a developer was going to come in and develop 2 acre lots sitting next to Ace Farms? Look at the way that sale was done? Do Burke, Caruso and Donnelly really want land sitting next to Ace Farm left out on the open market? But then people should remember that Manny Manguel works for a faction associated with KJ.
Take Hitler's name off the earlier post and just read the comment. Unfortunately, there is a lot of truth in it.
To earlier post about how to figure out the real tax increase.
Get a copy of this year's budget. It shows what was budgeted on each line for the previous year and what is budgeted this year. See where the increases are and that will give you some idea of what you are paying over last year. I believe you can get a copy of the budget for free at Town Hall.
I think the point of the "Hitler" post was to show that when a person or group of people, especialy in government, subscribe to lying to the public as a means of getting their way, the resulting power often ends up being dangerous, disasterous and totally UNACCEPTABLE!!
Please tell me what the village is good for, Will it stop annexation! NO, I thought the reason for the Village was to stop annexation, we all know it won't help, why do we keep it, is it because the people that are now in power in the Town Government are not the ones you supported Porky, If those in power were ones that you supported or that you could control would you still want to keep the Village? Didn't think so!
Another day has past, and, still nothing has happened! keep writing those letters! Or maybe you have an area on the website that counts down the days until the next election! make sure to mark down 2 days before the election, so everyone will know when to expect our next yellow flyer!
Regardless of who you support, what political party you come from or whether you find Mr. Burke to be a nice guy---- THE POINT IS THAT THE PEOPLE OF TIMBER RIDGE AND BROOKSIDE WERE LIED TO AND THEIR VOTES WERE STOLEN BASED ON THOSE LIES.
Why do you think the lying fliers were only sent to those 2 areas? They have higher density ( oops, sorry Caruso, Donnelly and Burke--forgot only Brodsky's project is high density) and were the people very upset by the reassessment that was done.
Also, not by co-incidence, aren't those 2 areas heavily slanted to the Democratic Party?
Could it be even more obvious that a lying flier was sent to high density housing areas who were very upset by their reassessments and happen to be enrolled heavily towards the Democratic party?
Ahh, so that is the winning formula of how a Democratic majority gets elected to the Woodbury Town Board!!!
Remember the old saying:
Lie to me once, shame on you.
Lie to me twice, shame on me.
The same small group have lied to Woodbury over and over again. Unlike what was printed in the Timber Ridge flier (lies) , this can be proven and documented.
How can Levine and Haviland be proud to take office at tonight's meeting knowing that they won by cheating? How do they justify and rationalize this?
Burke lied to win his first election so this is just a repeat pattern for him.
Will the Board meeting tonight be televised live?
And I hope the people will ask these two new comers the same questions. Why did they write the flier? Why were their names on it? Where did they get their info? And why aren't they resigning their seat?
The budget should be available for FOILing at the Town Clerk's office. Definately good to check out, we'll be getting a copy. I'm not certain about fees, but THINK its free.
Obviously dissolving the village would cause shifts in power depending on who's on it that point... but what financial and legal factors are involved? Does the benefit of dissolving it justify wasting all the money we've already had to spend to set it up? How might switching back and forth so quickly affect us legally, such as our role in an annexation case? A few things that should be weighed carefully, politics aside.
As for their rhetoric, several comments here are spot on. Donnely simplistically claims we represent the developers, they the people. Laughable, given the current response to public outrage over election fraud, but the more serious point is how such statements blatently ignore the complexities of development issues in our town.
Like what, for example they propose as a better solution to clustered zoning? Leaving vast open tracks of land at our borders on the open market? Do they support the older sprawl zoning at Legacy, for example, which would actually clear-cut more of the property to build inefficient septic fields/wells? Or would they continue to support Ralph Caruso's past plans, of blocking all development with moritoriums that can get us sued (and will they be footing the bill?)
I fear we won't get answers to these questions, because its easier and politically expedient to repeat the same thing and hope no one thinks too hard about it. Only someone willing to move beyond such simplistic, harmful rhetoric can truly be said to represent the "voice of the people."
Since Bob Donnelly is a part of the Democratic Committee that got Burke elected by fraud and lies first time and Levine and Haviland elected by fraud and lies in this election, one needs to seriously consider believing anything he says. Even his neighbors don't believe him.
But here is the important question: Where is the proof ,Mr. Donnelly, to your quote that anyone not agreeing with you represents developers? Do you have video tape showing money passing hands? Do you have documents showing this? Just because someone votes to approve a project does not prove they represent developers.
And being part of a party machine that has now shown itself to be willing to cheat and lie to win an election (which can be documented) shows Donnelly and the current Democratic Committee do not respect or represent the people of Woodbury.
They do apparently represent a small power hungry group that does not read, learn or understand facts, but instead peddles lies and yellow fliers.
They don't represent anyone I know, thank goodness.
Hey, all I want to know is who wrote, approved, printed and distributed the yellow lying flier?
I saw the last Town Board meeting of Dec. 2007 when Burke said he was responsible but then went on to say that he didn't write it, print it or distribute?
So what does being responsible really mean? What part did Burke play in this if he didn't write, print or distribute the flier? That response is not going to appease anyone and it is not going to make the flier go away. He was at the head of the ticket that won an election (in his case twice now) by fraud.
Levine's and Haviland's names were on the flier. What does that say about them if they let something go out under their names and didn't know that it was a lie?
Come on, who are you kidding? The fact that it went out right before the election, leaving no time for the other side to respond, smells anyway. It was a last minute smear attack in order to win--plain and clear.
But what they have won is disgust and an empty victory.
I RETURN TO THE QUESTION: WHO WROTE THE FLIER, APPROVED IT, PRINTED IT AND DISTRIBUTED?IT
STOP BEING COWARDS AND HAVE THE GUTS TO ADMIT TO YOUR AUTHORSHIP.
THE DEMOCRATS SENT OUT A LETTER APPEALING FOR MONEY AND SUPPORT TO GET A DEMOCRATIC MAJORITY ON THE TOWN BOARD. SO THAT MAJORITY HAS AN OBLIGATION AFTER TAKING PEOPLE'S MONEY AND THEIR VOTES TO OPENLY TELL US WHO PRODUCED THE YELLOW FLIER.
THIS IS NOT GOING TO BE SWEPT UNDER THE RUG. WOODBURY VOTERS AT LEAST DESERVE AN ANSWER.
That woman who spoke last night had a good point about Burke and the board answering to the taxpayers since we pay their salaries. The last woman that spoke also had a good point about Burke taking a pay increase when his job has actually decreased.
It appears that Burke and the other Democrats on the board will now stonewall not only the public, but their co-board members as well. I certainly hope that the viewing public is watching to see the shananigans that these Democrats are pulling.
I totally disagree with what Burke Levine and Haviland did with that flier. It was a lie and it was dicusting.
That being said. I think Sandy Capriglione and Robin Crouse should be ashamed of themselves for the display they put on in front of those three children in the audience. There will be other meetings and opportunities to express your discust of them. Last night in front of those children was not the time nor place. Shame on you both.
You're joking, right??? Burke, Haviland and Levine obviously know NO shame themselves, or they would have had their families leave after they were sworn in. They knew the possibility existed that something unfavorable could be said, just by who was sitting in the audience before the meeting started.
Are you saying their families should be kept in the dark and protected? Do you think those three men gave a second thought to destroying the reputations of Gianzero, McNeill, Queenan & Aronowitz when they did their mass mailings, insinuating that the prior board (minus Mr. Untouchable Burke)was in the developers pockets, or when they distributed their trash flier throughout Timber Ridge? Do you think for one second that Burke, Haviland and Levine took into consideration what their lies would do to the prior board's families?? With your way of thinking, all Burke, Haviland & Levine would need to do is bring their son/daughter to every meeting to keep the public silent.
A remedy to all of this would have been for them to just come clean from the beginning, and to have told the TRUTH. So a BIG SHAME ON THEM!!!
Again, Sandy, or Robin, last night was not the time to do it, and its only because their children were in the audience. If they choose to bring their children again, then that would mean they have no concern for them, and then the gloves could come off. But those kids did nothing wrong, dispite what their pathetic parents did. Swiller even had the curtisy to refrain from the attack, and at least warned them about the next meeting.
Because a family member does something wrong, doesn't mean the whole family should suffer for it. Isn't that right.
And the whole family of Woodbury will continue to suffer together--
and brodsky's 450 houses is not high density housing. what was wrong with the original 150 houses. oh, that's right, he blackmailed the town saying he couldn't afford to do that and he had an "interested buyer." wonder who that was.
Can't wait for Brodsky to finish as it should be a great addition to the area.
High density? Isn't Timber Ridge a fine example of high density?
The meeting from last night was just on TV and it looked like Sandy & Robyn weren't the only two with something to say. Queenan put John and Bo and Carlten on the spot with that letter and Maria was pretty upset to. Seems like those Democrats might want to just tell the whole story and maybe then people will shut up.
If John had the balls to tell the truth, not hide behind Caruso or Donnelly and stand up for himself by being truthful & honest...
Must have been dreaming......
What a disgraceful excuse of a man that is leading the Town of Woodbury.
Thought I'd post this too, to put some of my thoughts in context.
I was intentionally focusing more on the simplistic rhetoric and thinking which I think got us into this mess, without naming names on the board. I hoped to show a better way forward for both sides, though I noted there were hard questions that still need to be answered about this election.
"While there are a range of issues still facing our community after this recent election, I would like to begin this New Year with some respectful advice on the difference between simplistic politics and true leadership.
I was prompted to do so by former Democratic Committee Chairman Bob Donnelly’s recent statement to the Times Herald Record. This past Tuesday, he was quoted as stating that “from now on, its going to be who represents the developers and who represents the people who live here.”
These statements are, frankly deeply disturbing to me. We may not all agree on the complex issues facing our community, but to portray them as black and white to discredit one’s opponents is at best simplistic. At worst, it hinders the free, open discussion of issues utterly vital to Woodbury’s future.
Woodbury is facing many challenges- growth, rising taxes, environmental issues and concerns regarding annexation topping the list for many of us. But to demonize one’s opponents, to portray them as evil or “in the pockets of developers” seems an all-too convenient way to avoid giving any concrete plans or solutions of your own.
I did not come here to criticize the new board members this evening. Rather I offer them, and all elected officials a new standard for public discourse in this New Year. Let any elected official claiming to “speak for the people” do so not through simplistic, misleading caricatures, but open, honest free discussion of the issues facing Woodbury.
We may not always agree, but I believe we can hold the same ideal of responsible, publicly accountable leadership. That, ladies and gentleman is the “spirit of critique” Woodbury deserves, and needs if any of us are to have a community worth living in.
I truly believe that many of us care passionately about Woodbury’s future. I believe that together we hold greater solutions and collective wisdom, even when we disagree than any one party or group. What we should not accept is anyone who would impede such solutions by silencing or misleading the public. Let us hold all of our officials and ourselves to a higher standard, and reward true leadership whenever- and wherever it occurs.
Thank you, and good night."
I decided to change my last post because, frankly it came out a little harsher than I intended and the situation Sweet Pea raised does trouble me. I stand by many of my points, but also wish to acknowledge that it was a difficult situation to know what to do- and my sorrow if family members were hurt.
I had my own reasons for the approach I took (and prefer we not read into what I, Jonathan or anyone else meant without asking); I personally didn't even realize there would be kids present till I sat down. In hindsight it makes sense family members might want to be at the first meeting, but I also can't believe the new council members expected no one to say anything after all the outrage their campaign has raised.
I respect Robin and Sandy's choice to make what was not a groundless, mean-spirited political attack but a continued call to redress filthy politics which have hurt many. I would hope they weren't intentionally trying to hurt family members (I know them too well to think they'd plan it that way). All the same, it does seem unfair to give special treatment when MANY people, MANY reputations, MANY families have been affected by these smear tactics. It does not seem unfair, as candidates enter office to ask them if they will be accountable as they promised- and despite their hard-hitting challenges, I sensed the intent of giving each a chance to speak for themselves, not just hide behind Burke's "no comment" party line.
I believe Sandy and Robin were acting out of a lifelong conviction for justice and honest government that could not keep silent. And it does seem a poor example to push that under the rug before our children.
I've seen family members and friends affected by vitriolic attacks and rumors, in and out of public meetings for a good chunk of my life. I know the courage it takes to stand by someone under criticism, but I also know how its formed me as a person, watching the people I love stand up for their principals. Its that conviction which made me support Robin and Sandy's right to their voice- but it also reminds me that others can be hurt. I thank the family members for coming out in what I think they had to know might be a difficult meeting, and admire the courage that takes. Something we have in common perhaps, across political lines.
Perhaps, if anything this might remind us that we are all people, with families and lives beyond the politics which can get so heated. I'd hoped my statement then might present a higher ideal for the new year, and I can think of no greater ideal than empathy. I fear the divides between us are too great, but perhaps this might give us all pause to remember we all have lives and loves beyond these crazy issues.
I can't stop standing up for honest, just politics. I can't stop opposing those who seem to think twisting the truth and "speaking for the people" can share the same campaign flyer. But I can must also try and ensure that my passion does not exceed my compassion.
Holy crap! was that long winded!
sweet pea said...
Again, Sandy, or Robin, last night was not the time to do it, and its only because their children were in the audience. If they choose to bring their children again, then that would mean they have no concern for them, and then the gloves could come off. But those kids did nothing wrong, dispite what their pathetic parents did. Swiller even had the curtisy to refrain from the attack, and at least warned them about the next meeting.
Because a family member does something wrong, doesn't mean the whole family should suffer for it. Isn't that right.
Hey Sweet pea , what should Mike A tell his Kids?
Swiller probably forgot his notes, thank god we didn't have to listen to his voice cracking on the verge of tears while speaking at the podium like a few weeks ago, I credit him for refraining, but make no mistake, he is an A-hole!
I don't think your getting the point. It shouldn't have been done in front of ther kids, period. Just like I hope it was never done in front of Mikes kids. You keep saying "What about Mikes, or Geraldines family". Carlton or Bo wouldn't care, and I believe your right. they wouldn't care. But how much a better person are you for stooping to their level.
Gees Louise, nobody should or could stoop to Burke's, Levine's or Havilland's level.
Unc, Please check your email.
I would never, for the record condone seeking revenge because other families were hurt. My point was families of public officials are as just as affected (if not more) by written character defamation as challenges to genuine misdeeds in meetings.
The community as a whole had been wronged, and a public, official meeting was the proper venue to address this. This had began two meetings earlier and did not blindside anyone.
It was an official Town Board meeting, not a private celebration of Levine, Haviland and Burke's election. They were well aware of this.
Dear Sweet Pea:
People like you are the reason why the Burkes, Carusos, Levines and Havilands get what they want. That is because you feign at having some morals which really only underscores your cowardice,weakness (or perhaps something else)and then they get away with their behavior.
Where were you when the previous board was being viciously attacked?
Were you worried about their families? You were not vocal then, which makes your comments now very suspect.
Knock it off, "Sweet Pea"
Hey! Were Burke, Levine and Haviland thinking about their families when they LIED?
Sweet Pea is a moron, way to go Robin and Sandy!
I hope Bo and Carltons' children asked them to "explain" what was going on. Just maybe, they listened to themselves explain how they won an election on smear tactics and told their children it was the wrong thing to do...sorry, I was dreaming for a moment!
No, they probably just told their kids not to pay attention to "those women" because they were just mad because their people lost.
I hope the kids don't ask which party Bo peep's and Liar Levine's detractors belong to. How would they explain that one to their kids?
I don't know who Sweet Pea is or if she was feigning (hard to tell 'round these parts). But she seemed genuinely concerned and took the time to explain herself, not just bait us.
I do feel she was holding up a bit of an unfair standard. But I think its important we keep asking ourselves tough questions, not risk losing the high ground.
It wasn't an easy situation. I can see why she was worried and there are places where I would draw a line.
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